Speaker: Greg Sanders

Passage: Revelation 11

REVELATION 11 – HOW DO WE UNDERSTAND THE TWO WITNESSES?

We’ve been systematically working through the book of Revelation, just verse by verse, concept by concept. If you had asked me in the beginning of our Revelation study, where’s the one part you don’t want to have to teach, I would have said chapters 11-13 because it gets kind of crazy in here. 

And historically, I think this is a place where I see maybe the most strange theology come into the church. Our task as a family is to study the Scriptures for us. I’m not trying to put it on the internet and change anybody’s perspective, but I also think we have a responsibility to study the Scriptures and do our best to discern what they really say. 

THIS PASSAGE WAS ORIGINALLY MEANT FOR THE SEVEN CHURCHES

So I want to begin with some important ideas about these passages that I want us to kind of hold as truths. Number one: Revelation 11-13 is a continuation and a necessary part of this statement that’s made to John: “Come up here, and I’ll show you what has to happen after these things.” 

If you remember, John has received a fairly scathing indictment against the churches that he’s planted– and there’s seven churches that it’s written to– and Jesus is pretty tough on five out of the seven, and then immediately afterwards, what’s said to John is, “Come up here. Let me show you what has to happen after these things.” 

And so I want us to just hold in our hearts that we can consider what is being revealed is a prophetic declaration to the original addressees of the message, this is still part of what’s being said to them. So then, if we hold that tension, it means that our interpretation and whatever we would extrapolate from this text has to first align with what they understood was revealed. 

That’s just basic exegetical work in the Scripture. We can’t just look at the vertical and say, Well, this is what it means to me. We want to be good students of Scripture; we have to ask, what did it mean to the person it was written to? For instance, none of us would jump into the book of Kings, read the historical narrative of Israel and the kings, and assume it was speaking to something specific in our life today. We understand it was speaking to an event, a space, and a time. However, we can learn the principles of what God was doing with people and apply those to our lives. Make sense? 

And we also have to be willing to hold some things as questions that they held as questions. What do I mean by that? We’re probably not going to get all the answers we want. There’s probably something very holy about being willing to hold questions as questions and not try to superimpose what we think they mean. 

HISTORICAL INTERPRETATIONS OF THIS PASSAGE

Second thing: in the history of the church, all the way back to the early church fathers, this passage has been interpreted in two major ways. There are two perspectives, and I want you to hold these words: symbolic and futurist. The North African church fathers believed the majority of what is in this passage was symbolic. The Greco Roman Church Fathers believed it was literal– like futurist means it was speaking to things that were going to happen, specific events. And so those are two trajectories that we go on theologically. 

Here’s why I’m saying that. We have to consider that even the original hearers were struggling with what this meant. Our job is to do our best to discern what it means. Chapters 11-13 are kind of what I would call the center of a lot of eschatological concepts. What does that mean? A lot of things people think about the end times. And there’s a lot of weird stuff out there, and there’s a lot of really good stuff out there, but how we understand and interpret these verses is going to help us understand how we interpret this entire book.

And if we’re humble– how many would agree we should be humble? That’s a good biblical thing. Humility means we approach things with a cautiousness and with a sense of reverence instead of an arrogance where we try to superimpose ideas. And if we’re humble in this, we step cautiously because we understand that our interpretation of these passages– they’re a little thick, it’s going to feel a little bit Bible-schooly in the first part–, but it’s going to set up how we interpret the rest of Revelation. 

So, to start with, I want to remind us of some of the things that were said in Revelation 1:3: God blesses the one who reads this prophecy to the church. There’s a blessing on it, period, just for being read to the church. It’s good for us. And He blesses all who listen to it and obey what it says. Revelation was not given as a fun story that feels like a comic book; it was given to be obeyed. Which means Jesus, in revealing this to John, had expectations about His people walking in obedience to what they heard. 

WHO WAS THE INTENDED AUDIENCE?

Oftentimes we read this, and I think there’s a danger that happens where we kind of split it into chapters 1-3– we studied those, the letters to the seven churches– and then we split 4 through everything else. It’s like, well, that’s really about the future. That’s not the way this was received in its origin. In its origin, it was an entire letter to those churches. “For the time is near when these things will happen.” 

How do we imagine the original hearers understood that? If I said to you, The time’s really close; it’s almost time, you don’t assume I’m talking about thousands of years off, do you? No. So we at least should start there with a sense that they understood this as the time was near. And then we get the trajectory and the reason it was written. This letter is from John to the seven churches in the province of Asia. 

If you’ve ever written a love letter to someone, would you agree with me that it was intended for that person? That you wouldn’t want any random individual picking it up and reading it and assuming you meant those things for them? That’d be kind of embarrassing, right? Why? Because in every form of communication, there is an intended audience, and that intended audience can therefore say, This is meant for me. 

REVIEWING WHAT WAS WRITTEN TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES

Okay, in this passage, John is saying this letter is to the seven churches. What does he say to those seven churches? Let’s look through it really quick; I’m just gonna pull some phrases out. To the church in Ephesus, he says just what Jesus is saying to them: “Turn back to me again and work as you did at first. If you don’t, I will come remove your lampstand from its place among the churches.” Not very positive. To Smyrna, He says, “Remain faithful even when facing death, and I’ll give you a crown of life.” Now, we touched all these before, I’m not going to go back into these teachings, there’s so much in here. 

To Pergamum, He says, “Repent, or I will come to you suddenly and fight against them with the sword of my mouth.” To Thyatira, he says, “But I have this complaint against you. You are permitting that woman– Jezebel who calls herself a prophet– to lead my servants astray.” To Sardis, He says, “Your deeds are far from right in the sight of God. Go back to what you heard and believed at first; hold to it firmly and turn to me again. Unless you do, I will come upon you suddenly, as unexpected as a thief.” To Philadelphia, He says, “Because you’ve obeyed my command to persevere–” hold that word, persevere, it’s important in this teaching– “I will protect you from the great time of testing that will come upon the whole world to test those who belong to this world.” To Laodicea, He says, “But since you’re like lukewarm water, I will spit you out of my mouth.” 

If we look at these verses– chapter 1 and then the following verses to the churches– we have to realize this entire letter, start to finish, was written to these churches. So to properly understand the message, the seven churches have to remain in our mind as the intended audience. 

IS THIS BOOK RELEVANT TO US TODAY?

Okay, can we learn from this and apply it to our lives? Of course. The answer is yes. The caution, though, is that we must allow our application to be consistent with the original intent of what was said to them. Once we understand and have discerned the message that was given to them, then we can pull out the principles and apply them to our lives. 

A failure to do this, church, has led to a lot of confusion around this book. My hope for us is to just give us a proper understanding of Scripture, that we can’t just read it and decide what it means to me. We need to be great students of the text, wherever we’re at in the text, and ask the question, How was this understood by the original hearer? 

Yeah, but what if it’s not consistent with what I think it says? Then what you thought it said wasn’t as important as what it said originally. It doesn’t mean it wasn’t maybe an application the Lord could give you, but you cannot say, This is what this means. That’s just bad exegetical work. 

REVELATION CHAPTER 11:1-14

I want us to highlight and note that two– only two– of the seven churches were faithful to Jesus; only to two of the churches did He not have a complaint. I actually think that’s really important as we look at this number two that shows up in chapter 11. So I’m going to read chapter 11 to us. I just want you to hear it– if you want to close your eyes, great. I want you to listen to the narrative. 

“Then I was given a measuring stick, and I was told, ‘Go and measure the Temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers. But do not measure the outer courtyard, for it has been turned over to the nations. They will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 

‘And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in burlap and will prophesy during those one thousand two hundred and sixty days.’ These two prophets are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of all the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire flashes from their mouths and consumes their enemies. This is how anyone who tries to harm them must die. They have power to shut the sky so that no rain will fall for as long as they prophesy. And they have the power to turn the rivers and oceans into blood, and to strike the earth with every kind of plague as often as they wish. 

“When they complete their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the bottomless pit will declare war against them, and he will conquer them and kill them. And their bodies will lie in the main street of Jerusalem, the city that is figuratively called ‘Sodom’ and ‘Egypt,’ the city where their Lord was crucified. 

“And for three and a half days, all peoples, tribes, languages, and nations will stare at their bodies. No one will be allowed to bury them. All the people who belong to this world will gloat over them and give presents to each other to celebrate the death of the two prophets who had tormented them.

“But after three and a half days, God breathed life into them, and they stood up. Terror struck all who were staring at them. Then a loud voice from heaven called to the two prophets, ‘Come up here!’ And they rose to heaven in a cloud as their enemies watched. 

“At the same time there was a terrible earthquake that destroyed a tenth of the city. Seven thousand people died in that earthquake, and everyone else was terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second terror is past, but look, the third terror is coming quickly.”

If you go to a church growth conference, the number one thing they’re going to say is, don’t teach Revelation 11, it’s going to be hard to grow a church because this is craziness. How many would agree with me it’s a little apocalyptic and strange?

THE FUTURIST AND SYMBOLIC VIEWPOINTS

I just want to dial in and draw our attention to a phrase– two witnesses– in here, because I think how we understand two witnesses in the narrative shapes what we understand about this passage, shapes how we unlock the passage. David Mitchell taught a couple of weeks ago, and he taught some concepts out of chapter 11, and one of the things he brought to light was the way the two perspectives– futurism and symbolic– came about. 

Here’s what futurism means: that the witnesses are returned prophets. Most scholars who believe in futurism think it’s Moses and Elijah because Scriptures would say they never died, they came back, they stepped back into their role prophetically, and they’re on the earth to do apocalyptic damage. The symbolic perspective believes that the witnesses are the whole people of God testifying to the person of Jesus. 

For clarity, and I want to make sure we understand this: how we interpret the two witnesses, how we interpret chapters 11-13, is not a salvation issue. This is a place where we, as the people of God, get to study, we get to discern– it doesn’t deal with whether or not we’re saved. In other words, nobody’s getting booted out of the club if you have a different opinion. 

You can listen to this and go, I totally disagree. I love it. Go study your Bible. Go dig in. How many believe if Paul the Apostle stood up here to teach, you’d be like, Okay, we’re listening. He says, in the book of Acts to the Berean culture, I’m proud of you, because when I taught you didn’t believe it, you went home to study to see if it was real. 

That should be the way we handle any teaching, that we should go, as the people of God, back to the Scriptures and ask the question, Is this real? Is this good? before we just ingest it. We live in a culture right now that is so filled with voices that we just listen to it, and if it happened on a podcast, it’s like, if it’s on the internet, it has to be true. And we’ve lost our discipline to study the text. My hope in this is to cause you to want to dig in and study. 

Both of the futurist and symbolic viewpoints would fall in line with what I would say is Orthodox Christianity, and there’s proponents for each viewpoint going back all the way to the church fathers. However, I believe one makes more sense in the wider message, or what we would call the wider arc of Revelation and in the New Testament, and here’s why: the two witnesses are just one of six parallel figures in the book of Revelation. 

SYMBOLISM IN REVELATION

I want to throw that slide up and I want to ask you some questions.

How many believe the lamb in this passage is actually a lamb standing in Heaven going, Bah? What do we think the lamb is? How many think that Game of Thrones is right, and there’s actually a dragon that comes into this story? Who do we think the dragon is? How many think that these two beasts are the two beasts of old folklore in the Old Testament, and they’re going to come out of the ocean, come up out of the land? How many think that the two beasts might mean something else? 

What about the bride? Is there a woman getting married in this passage? Who’s the bride? This is a harder one to answer; it’s extra credit; who’s the prostitute? It’s the spirit of the age; it’s the spirit of the antichrist. Okay, so five out of the six of those we’ve just identified that we understand and know through the rest of Scriptures, those are symbols; they’re symbolic of something. 

Not to mention, where was John when he wrote this passage? He was in prison on the Island of Patmos. Do you know what he was covered by at that time? It’s called the Praetorian Guard. The reason John was in Patmos is the Caesar tried to kill him. He, by most scholars’ perspectives, was boiled in oil, and he didn’t die. We’ll call it a legend. The history says he didn’t even come out with blisters. And the Caesar was so freaked out that he decided to send him off because the answer is, If I can’t kill you, I at least don’t want to see you. Why? Because John was causing such an uprising in the culture, because he was leading people to Jesus, people were getting free, and their lives were changing and the Roman occupation didn’t love that, so they sent him to Patmos. 

So if John is under Praetorian Guard, he’s in prison, and he’s writing letters to his churches because we know that’s who the letter is addressed to– it’s the churches that he planted in Asia Minor– it goes to figure that John’s probably going to say, I need to put symbolism in this because if I just call out that the Caesar is the enemy, that’s probably not going to go well. And more than likely, my letter won’t get there. 

You see in each instance, John’s using symbolic language to point to something. And because of that, if the two witnesses are to be understood as literal persons and we go to this futurist point of view, and they’re the persons of Moses and Elijah, what John did here was in the six major symbols in this passage, he does five one way and one the other. That’s not very common in literature. It would seem far more likely that the symbolic perspective is right, and John is actually pointing to the two witnesses being the church. 

EIGHT WAYS THE TWO WITNESSES ARE DEPICTED

I just find it really unlikely that the two witnesses represent the persons of Moses and Elijah, which leads us to the next question: So who are they? What can we figure out? I want to walk us through eight ways the two witnesses are presented in this passage. And I know this is a little heady, I promise it’ll land. 

The two witnesses are depicted as those who wage war against the kingdom of darkness. How many would agree with me that that’s one of the callings on our lives? The two witnesses are shown to be those who testify to the truth and power of Jesus Christ. How many would agree that that’s a calling on our life? 

They’re presented as two lampstands, which gives us a clue of what’s being referenced, because in Revelation 1:20, it says “The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches.” The word angel there really probably means pastor in the way it was used, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches. 

It’s also an additionally interesting note to consider that the number two is used in this passage for witnesses, and there were only two of the churches that were witnessing correctly. They were the two churches who had maintained what we would call a non-compromised testimony to Jesus. That was Smyrna and Philadelphia. So the two witnesses here are being presented as those who refuse to collude with sin, to compromise.

According to chapter 11 here, it says the two witnesses are the two olive trees. Well, olive oil is always connected to worship and prayer. Olive trees always point to what fuels worship throughout the Old Testament. I think there’s a clear connection. The two witnesses are those who wage war with worship and intercession. How many would agree that’s part of our calling? 

Here’s where it gets really interesting. Two witnesses are spoken of, but they only have one mouth and one body. You’re like, What are you talking about? The word stomatos in the Greek is a singular number noun for the word mouth here. The word ptōma is a singular number noun for dead body, where it says their corpse is in the street. How do two individuals have only one mouth and one body? If they together symbolize one body. 

It says that the two witnesses have mouths that are speaking and releasing fire. Okay, where do we see that elsewhere in Scripture? Well, in Jeremiah, fire is used for the Word of the Lord, for what God is doing inside that comes out, and there’s a fire that burns inside and it comes out. In the book of Acts, when the Holy Spirit lands on the church, it’s likened to what? The ability to give utterance as given by the Holy Spirit, we see a picture of fire. 

Lastly, the two witnesses are clothed in sackcloth, which is for me, one of the most important pictures, because sackcloth throughout the Old Testament is connected to an external sign of a life of repentance. It’s an indication that these two witnesses have surrendered to and are living a life of repentance. 

There’s a bunch more, and I think we’ve done enough. But here’s where I land, and here’s where I would encourage us to consider the evidence that the two witnesses are a picture of the people of God. I think it’s important because it makes us ask the question, What do we do with that? Why does it even matter? Well, then we go back to our early statement of we’ve got to learn what was being said to the seven churches. 

You see, if the two witnesses are the people of God, then they create a very clear narrative for the seven churches, because that means they’re in the story; They’re not just watching it, they’re not spectators learning about some events that are to come, they’re actually in it. They have a part to play in the story, they have a role in the chaos and the difficulty that is coming, and there’s a promise for them in this message. 

REVELATION 11:15-19

Let’s go to chapter 11, verses 15-19: “Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices shouting in heaven: ‘The whole earth has now become the Kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign forever and ever.’” Okay, how has the earth become the Kingdom of the Lord? Could I just offer a simple answer? Because his people are in it. His people, living from the inner court, are in the midst of the outer court. 

I’d love to just push pause and say it doesn’t matter where you are, doesn’t matter what situation you’re in, you can live from the inner court and affect it. You could be dropped into the worst situation that you could ever conceive and still live from the inner court. I actually think this is part of why John saw this and heard this– measure the inner court, don’t measure the outer court. Why? Because your eyes are to stay there. 

“And the twenty-four elders sitting on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped him. And they said, ‘We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the one who is and who always was, for now, you have assumed your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry with you, but now the time of your wrath has come. It is time to judge the dead and reward your servants. You will reward your prophets and your holy people, all who fear your name, from the least to the greatest. And you will destroy all who have caused destruction on the earth.’ 

“Then, in heaven, the Temple of God was opened and the Ark of his covenant could be seen inside the Temple. Lightning flashed, thunder crashed and roared; there was a great hailstorm, and the world was shaken by a mighty earthquake.”

THE MESSAGE TO THE SEVEN CHURCHES AND THE MESSAGE TO US

Here’s what the message was to the seven churches: they were to know that they were going to go through difficulty, suffering, and chaos, and they were to stay focused on the Lord, keeping their eyes on the inner court in the midst of that chaos. And they were to understand that while in the midst of that difficulty, they could trust the character of God, that they’d be protected, they’d be preserved if they persevered and they stayed in Jesus. Their assignment was to be a people in the earth who lived in the fear of the Lord, never wavering in faith and devotion to Him, and that He was going to reward them for that endurance and for that faithfulness. 

And if this is accurate, what it creates is an incredibly clear message for us. We can know that we’re going to go through difficulty, suffering, chaos because we’re still in the season that they were warned about. You say, How do you know? Because Jesus hasn’t come back yet. And therefore, regardless of what’s going on in the world around us, whether that’s in your jobs– I don’t want to just talk about the world like globally– doesn’t matter what’s going on in your job, your home, your nation, regardless of where you see the opposition of the enemy and his hordes, we as a people are to remain faithful to the way of Jesus. 

What does that mean? It means our job is to carry His nature everywhere we go. We react in His nature. We deal with people in His nature. We view life in His nature that we’re to live in the fear of the Lord, which means what? That we’re to let the Scriptures control our behavior. We let what the Scriptures teach control what we do, that we force ourselves to take on His nature and His character by saying, If I see Him live this way, I’m going to live this way. And that we keep our focus on the inner court. 

We stay consistent in worship and in prayer because it makes us a good believer? No. Because it saves our bacon. It shapes our perspective. It allows us to see things the way He sees them. It gives us a place to have our hearts shifted and changed. You want to grab on to the heart of God? Pray. You want to begin to see the Lord more clearly? Worship. There are weapons that He gave us, and His promise to them is His promise to us; if we live that way, we will earn a reward from Him when our witness in our day is over. 

Can you tell me when your witness is over? When you’re dead. Your life is your witness. We are to carry His image. We are to live for the Kingdom all the days of our life. And when He has decided that our testimony is over, He calls it. Did you know that the scriptures say that He– God alone– numbers our days? He’s in charge of that. 

THE ENEMY IS FIGHTING AGAINST US

I want us to understand we have an enemy that is working to cause us to let go of our witness. What do you mean? He’s fighting our culture at every level. We look around, we look on TV, look in the world, you look even in other believers’ lives, the enemy is fighting trust in the story of Jesus. 

Well, how’s he doing that? He throws dumb commercials on that are almost gospel, but they’re not really gospel. At the end, it’s like, Jesus gets us. No, that’s not even what the Scriptures teach. But half the church doesn’t know what the Bible says, so they’re like, Oh, cool. Look, that’s what He gets. 

There’s church people, there’s people in the Kingdom, their marriages are falling apart, and they’re blowing up their lives, and they’re divorcing, and the rest of the world’s like, Why would I trust the story of Jesus? It doesn’t seem to work. 

The enemy is fighting the very definition of life in our culture. What is life? When is life? Doesn’t matter. He’s fighting identity all over the place. In the people of God, where I see from my seat, he’s fighting faithfulness in the home. People are quitting on each other. They’re definitely not showing up to be Christ in their home. 

And he’s fighting to draw the people of God, who are to be clothed in the character of Jesus, to leave that path and simply choose what’s best for them, what’s comfortable, what’s the most beneficial for me? You know, I matter in this; I need to know what works for me. I would say he’s fighting to become any distraction that will take our eyes off of Jesus. 

GOD’S INVITATION TO US

And at the same time, we have a King who’s inviting us to remain faithful. He’s inviting us to continue to be His witness, carry His nature, carry His image, be in our day and in our time, and live from His principles, carry His person everywhere we go, that we would be faithful to His character in all our life and days. 

What does that mean? It means when I leave church, and I show up at work, my character doesn’t shift. Well, you know, in the business world, if you’re a little toothier, you’re a little harsh with people, it gets you somewhere. Great. It’s also not the character of Jesus. So, at some point, you’ve got to lay down the things that got you ahead because your King said, Don’t do it. It means that everywhere we go, even in traffic, when we drive, we have to carry the nature of Jesus. And we laugh at that one, but sometimes we don’t realize how simple it is for us to give ourselves justification to let go of His nature. 

Consider the word disciple and consider the word discipline. Can you not see the etymology? To be a disciple is to be a learner under discipline. That we are to keep our hearts and eyes on the inner court as a people. That we use prayer and worship for what they are– they are weapons of warfare. They shape me, and they shape everything I see. 

And we refuse to get sucked into the chaos of the outer court. Church, we live in the outer court; we are in the outer court as a people. But we are to live from the inner court, willing to stand and say, Hey, no weapon formed against me will prosper, and all those who rise up against me will fall. I don’t have to live in fear. Why? I got a different source. 

I would love to lay in front of us that I think the two witnesses are the people of God, and I think we are to be those witnesses in our day and in our time. We are to walk into this city around us and say, I’m going to show you Him every moment of every day. I think it’s Brother Lawrence or St Francis– I can’t remember which one it was– he talked about preaching the gospel at all times and when necessary, use words. 

A CALL TO REPENTANCE

Stand with me, please. I’m so glad chapter 11 is over. We cannot let the spirit of the age and the distractions of the enemy dissuade us from our calling to be a people governed by our King, reflecting His glory. I love that last song we sang, the theology in it. I was like, Oh, Lord, that’s amazing. All is for Your glory, all is for Your name, that in all things, You would have Your rightful place, You’d be preeminent, that in everything about me, people would see Him. 

That’s my question for us, not a shame-inducing question, an honest one: are there places in our lives where we’ve given ourselves a path to not reveal Jesus? Those are the places we have to repent. Those are the places we put sackcloth back on, we go back into humility, and we say, All right, Lord, I need to look like you. I haven’t been looking like You here. Maybe you’re in a marriage and you haven’t been treating each other Christ-like, and you need to repent. I wouldn’t leave before you do it. I think it’s dangerous to hear the Word of the Lord then walk away. 

Maybe you’ve got some stuff going on in secret that you need to get exposed. We’re going to have prayer teams up front. This is a time to deal with places where you’re like, I felt the conviction today. My witness hasn’t been right. I have bought into the world system. I’ve made You too small in my eyes. All right, Lord, I’m here back to be restored so I can be who You’ve called me to be.

Let me pray us out. Jesus, we love You, we honor You. It is You that is the focus. Holy Spirit, would You bring proper conviction to every area– any area– that we’re not carrying a witness towards You, we’re not carrying the fear of the Lord, we’re not clothed in Your nature. I love that we can repent; I love that You forgive. I love that there’s no intermediary, there’s no question that we’re told that we can fearlessly come before the throne of grace, guaranteed a glad welcome. And so today we do that, but we want to be a people that reveal You. We love You, and we honor You. Jesus name, amen.